Saturday, 5 August 2017

Ireland shows why Scotland will never leave


Apparently the Irish Taoiseach wants the UK to remain in the EU. He is trying to keep the door open to the European Union and if that door fails, then he wants Britain to at least remain in the European Single Market and Customs Union. The Republic of Ireland is also concerned about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic and it wishes to maintain the passport free Common Travel Area that allows citizens of the Republic to travel anywhere within the British Isles without even showing a passport. But if that proves impossible the Republic would prefer border checks to take place at the sea crossings between Britain and Ireland. Above all the Republic is concerned about its trade. The British buy a lot of goods and services from the Republic and these goods when transported to the European mainland make their way through Britain. To summarise Brexit is going rather badly for the Republic of Ireland.



The Pro EU establishment across the world went full blast with their scare stories in 2016, but the British didn’t listen. We’ve been through tough times before and generally we can take it. We are usually willing to fight for a principle. We don’t care to be controlled by foreign powers. This after all is what we were fighting for both in 1914 and 1939. Maintaining the sovereignty of the UK and other European nation states has been at the core of Britain’s foreign policy for centuries. It is the reason why we are willing to go through tough times. We do so because it is worth it. But fortunately it looks as if we are not going to go through particularly tough times. A year later and the UK economy is doing just fine. Despite an epic Remoan rear-guard action Britain is going to leave the EU and we are going to leave completely. To achieve this goal we actually don’t have to do a thing. We just have to wait and in early 2019 we will have left.

It would be very nice to have a deal with the EU. The deal could go something like this. The UK will become a country like nearly every other country in the world that trades more or less freely without giving up one little bit of our sovereignty. Australia, for instance, does not need to be ruled by Jakarta in order to trade with the rest of Australasia. It does not require the Australasian Court or the Australasian Commission to tell it what to do. No-one in Australia would consider such a requirement to be worth it. They would say stuff your trade if you want to tell us what to do. We can buy from someone else. So the EU can allow us to trade more or less freely or we can buy from someone else. That is their choice. Whatever happens we will be fine. We may need to adjust. We may have to buy Anchor butter rather than Kerrygold. But here’s the deal. We can get on quite well without buying Irish butter or German cars. We can get our butter and cars from somewhere else. We could even make our own.

The Republic of Ireland unfortunately is in a rather different position. Much of their trade is with the UK. If the EU imposes delays and tariffs on trade between the UK and the EU it is going to make it rather difficult for Dublin to send its milk and butter to the EU. It could either send it on a slow boat round Britain or it could find its lorries held up both at Holyhead and Dover. If British tourists have to spend hours waiting in line to show their passport at the EU border, then Republic of Irish citizens might equally find it somewhat harder to nip across the border to fill up with petrol in Northern Ireland. Cooperation cuts both ways. Of course it need not be that way, but EU attempts to punish Britain for Brexit are liable to end up punishing the EU. If Canada can trade freely with the EU while remaining a sovereign nation state, then so too can Britain. You either help that to happen or you don’t. I understand that the whole EU project is held together by fear and dependence. You need to try to discourage others from leaving. But we will adjust no matter what you do. We are not scared and neither are we dependent on EU money. The EU gets more from Britain than we get back both in terms of trade and in terms of subsidy. It is this that fundamentally meant membership was a bad deal for us. Losing the UK might be bad for the EU, but it is not bad for Britain. That is indeed why we are leaving.

The fundamental problem for the Republic of Ireland is that since it left the UK it has maintained a fundamentally domestic relationship with the UK while being independent. The UK’s response to the Republic leaving the UK has been to allow it to maintain its close ties with us. For this reason we have always allowed Republic of Ireland citizens to live and work in the UK. We have maintained an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic apart from those times when security concerns prevented us from doing so. We have continued to buy Republic of Ireland goods and services as if they were domestic goods and services.

There has been very little animosity from the British side. If the Republic of Ireland plays football, many people in Britain support them as if they were one of our own home nations. Many British people, including me, have Irish ancestry. We don’t think of Dublin in the same way as we think of Paris. Both are capitals of independent nation states, but one seems rather more foreign than the other. I think it is because of the closeness that British people feel towards the Republic of Ireland that we buy so many Irish goods and services. Someone from London buys goods from Dublin with the same sense of buying something from home as he would if he bought them from Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast. We don’t think of Guinness as being from abroad.

But this feeling is not altogether reciprocated. I have never met someone from the Irish Republic who hasn’t had a chip on their shoulder about the Brits. At some point, usually fairly quickly, I am reminded about Cromwell or famine or some other awful thing that we have done. There is a fundamental hostility that Britain gets from the Republic in return for treating them like cousins. We may get on for the most part, but the limit is that our supposed friends can’t quite bear that they speak the same language as we do, feel guilty that they failed to resurrect their own ancient language and blame us for absolutely everything that has ever happened and ever will happen.  

The Republic of Ireland wishes to maintain a domestic relationship with the UK, while being independent. This is the contradiction in their whole being ever since 1916. In one of our darkest hours a few weeks before the slaughter on the Somme, we met with treachery in Dublin and punished it accordingly in the same way that any other European country would have acted while at war. But few indeed are the Brits who hold it against them. Few indeed are the Brits who go on and on about it.

The Republic achieved its independence by means of terrorism (the IRA), but it never accepted that the people of Northern Ireland had the right to choose their own destiny. If Ireland had the right to secede from the UK, why on earth does Northern Ireland not have the right to choose to stay? But the Republic has never really accepted the right of the Northern Irish people to choose not to be a part of the Republic. For this reason more or less the same Irish nationalism that led to independence and the same Irish terrorism (the IRA) tried for decades to force Northern Ireland to submit. But we didn’t submit.

The response of the Republic since 1916 has more or less been hostility. While we have maintained open borders and treated the Republic as part of the family, they have responded with bombs or tacit support for those bombs. The aim of the Republic has always been the same as that of the IRA, only the means have differed. Now they want to use Brexit to bring those aims closer.

The aims of the Irish Republic have always been to annex part of the territory of the United Kingdom, i.e. Northern Ireland. This is the equivalent of Germany having the aim of taking back parts of Poland. The Poles would rightly consider this to be a fundamentally hostile foreign policy. Likewise if Mexico wanted to take back California and New Mexico, the United States would not treat Mexico as a friendly neighbour. Luckily for the Republic of Ireland we have looked upon its aims more tolerantly. We haven’t let them spoil how we look upon the cousins. We are used to their enmity and indulge it. But there are limits you know.

There is an international border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Sorry folks, but you put it there.  It followed from your choice to leave. You didn’t have to leave. The only real difference between Ireland and Britain is Catholicism and you have more or less given up on that now. Why else would you vote in a referendum to go against the teachings of the Church?  Despite your use of unpronounceable, unspellable words like "Taoiseach" and your rather perverse inability to pronounce "th" you all speak English just like we do . We have a shared history that goes back to the Norman Conquest and beyond. It is for this reason, as well as geography, that you trade more with us than you do with Slovakia.

The Republic of Ireland had a right to choose independence. They fought for it and they won. But they have never properly followed through the logic of this position. Now unfortunately they are forced to do so. Long term it's looking more and more like a strategic mistake. For nearly one hundred years the UK and the Republic have been able to maintain something like a domestic relationship while being separate nation states. This is no longer going to be possible. But this is simply a consequence of the Irish decision one hundred years ago. If the Irish Taoiseach wants to keep the door open to the EU, the UK might as well respond by saying we keep the door open to your coming back to the UK. That now is the only way that the Republic of Ireland can maintain its domestic relationship with Britain.

The Republic of Ireland is going to end up in a different trading bloc to its largest trade partner and closest neighbour. The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is going to be the border between the EU and the non-EU. Dublin must finally accept that this border does not go through the Irish Sea. We will do all we can to make the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as open as possible. But this is where the border is.

The only way now for the Republic of Ireland to maintain its domestic relationship with the UK is for the Republic to leave the EU. Britain would no doubt be willing to help. If the Republic left the EU, there would be no problem maintaining the Common Travel Area and we could create our own trade bloc as we more or less did from Irish independence to our both joining the EU.

I don’t think the Republic will do this however. The logic of the Republic leaving the EU and aligning itself once more with Britain is “ever closer union” between Britain and Ireland. In this way also Ireland could cease to be partitioned. But the Irish chip on its shoulder will prevent this. It makes a lot more sense to form one nation out of Britain and Ireland than it does to form one nation out of the EU. But Irish hatred of the Brits is more powerful than sense. Your choice folks.

Brexit will be a disaster for the Republic of Ireland. That is a shame, but it is a consequence of their decision all those years ago to leave the UK. Now the Republic will be properly independent. It will remain part of an ever closer EU and its relationship with the UK including Northern Ireland will diverge.  

Irish nationalism always involved a contradiction. They wanted to be independent, but they also wanted to maintain a relationship with the UK as if they were not independent. They want the same thing now. But sorry dear Republic of Ireland, you are an independent nation state. Brexit is not your business. Despite the Good Friday Agreement/Anglo Irish Agreement etc etc (all concessions to essentially the same Irish Republican terrorism that gave rise to the Republic in the first place) Northern Ireland is fundamentally not your business either. It is part of another sovereign nation state.   If there is to be a full international border it is a consequence of both the UK and the Republic of Ireland being what they are.

The same contradiction that is involved in Irish nationalism is, of course, to be found in Scottish nationalism. The SNP want Scotland to be independent, but to maintain a domestic relationship with the other parts of the UK. They want to keep the pound, open borders, a social union, and everything else they like about being a part of the UK. But this is to want to have both a domestic and an international relationship. They want therefore both an international and a non-international relationship, i.e. they want a contradiction.

Scotland even more than the Republic of Ireland has far greater domestic trade with the other parts of the UK than with any external market. But a domestic trade relationship (the UK’s internal market) can only be maintained by remaining a part of the UK. The clue is in the word "internal". Brexit makes this logic clear. The internal cannot be the same as the external.

The Republic of Ireland after nearly one hundred years is going to get itself in effect kicked out of the UK’s internal market. This is something that it really should be scared off. Likewise if Scotland chose independence it too would find itself in a different trading bloc to its largest trade partner. There would be a real international border between Berwick and Gretna and that border would have consequences. But again becoming independent logically involves creating an international border. It involves losing a domestic relationship and an internal market and having it replaced by an international relationship and an external market. Scottish nationalism has tried to hide the logic of its position, but Brexit is exposing the fact that the SNP has no intellectual foundation. They haven’t thought it through. I have yet to come across any Scottish nationalist who strikes me as really able. All I meet is cliché, unoriginal left-wing dogma and abuse. It’s either nice, but very average or nasty and rather dim. Brexit has exposed the lack of intellect and when a house is built without a foundation it tends to sink. This is what is happening to the SNP now.

A full and clean Brexit whereby we leave both the Customs Union and the EU’s Single Market will very ably demonstrate to the Irish Republic that its choice to become an independent nation state has consequences. These have been hidden. But they are now going to become clear. It is for this reason that the Irish Taoiseach is so angry about it. But I would suggest that he cease meddling in the affairs of another sovereign nation state. We made our decision. Unlike in the Republic of Ireland we respect the democratic will of the British people. We don’t ignore the result of our elections and we don’t take kindly to being asked to vote again until we get the right answer.  We are not in thrall to the EU as you are. We prefer freedom to their money, which anyway we don’t need and never really received.

The Republic of Ireland revolted in 1916 and chose independence only to find itself ruled by the Troika of the International Monetary Fund, European Central Bank and European Commission. It sold its sovereignty for a mess of Euros and gave up its independence gradually for the sake of money from the European Union. Now the Republic of Ireland will gradually merge with this United States of Europe and it will have as much independence and sovereignty as Texas, or New South Wales. Meanwhile Britain will re-join the club of sovereign nation states like Canada, Australia, Japan and the USA. Poor Dublin trapped by its history and by its hatred of the wicked Brits will look on and fume.

Hatred of the English almost meant that Scotland joined this fuming. But despite Nicola Sturgeon’s fury, most Scots have moved beyond our history. Only a minority here want to blame the English for everything and refight old battles. Brexit means that the SNP dream has died.  What happens to the Republic of Ireland in the next few years will prevent Scotland even considering following the same path. Why would you?

115 comments:

  1. Holy moly, haven't read your webpage for a while. What happened? You used to be so reasonable!

    This is some crazy stuff. Equating 1939 to brexit?

    Unsubscribe!

    Cliche/tip. You'll catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.

    But seriously, such a long screed for such little readership? It's not like you're going to get Wings money. Think about who your readers are and don't patronise them. Also, try and stay away from sounding like a Putin-bot.

    I'm a little depressed writing this. I didn't agree with everything you wrote in 2014/2015, but it's sad to see you move from "don't agree but at least it's thought provoking" to "another nutter".

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    1. You sound like a snowflake lefty... intolerant of opinions you dislike. Effie is bang on the money as usual.

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    2. She always is - hence the vitriol in response.

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  2. ''I understand that the whole EU project is held together by fear and dependence. You need to try to discourage others from leaving.'' ... ''Slaves eventually learn to love their chains'' springs readily to mind. Brexit should be our 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card.

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  3. Unlike another commenter, I think your article explains clearly the choices which face Ireland (RoI that is) and to come extent the six counties of NI. The UK has chosen to leave the EU. RoI chose to leave the UK, NI chose to stay. The corollary is that the UK in effect is no longer in the same political framework as the RoI, although we have glossed over this ever since it happened. Ireland became independent but so did the UK. The UK has made its choice, but so has the RoI, and the latter will now have to face the consequences of its choice, unless the EU decides to show common sense, in any case it is no longer (by the choice of the RoI, not the UK) a responsibility of the UK. The UK is more than willing to be reasonable with the EU27 generally and with the RoI in particular, but that willingness is not being reciprocated. I'm part Irish too, as it so happens, but I'm British (& Scottish). Brexit is going to happen, Ireland has made its choice, so have we.

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  4. We discussed the 2014 referendum and implications for both parts of Ireland then in a civil way. I still don't support the breakup of the UK but, Effie, this article is really silly and intemperate. "Th" pronounciation? Really?

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  5. This amounts to "hey guys if we just cut off our arms we won't be able to hug Ireland and Scotland anymore". "Oh my arms are gone, a mere fleshwound, what have arms ever done for us anyway, the Dunkirk spirit will see britannia through regardless of arms, and look Ireland got a leg chopped off by accident in the same incident so it could be worse"

    In essence it's a desperate last ditch throw of the dice that might have structural advantages for the union short term but will ultimately render the emotional argument for the union beyond repair.

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  6. So Eire has to give up its sovereignty to trade with the UK whilst dear old Blighty says stuff you to any trade deals that threaten its sovereignty. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken when it comes. This is the biggest piece of nonsense on Brexit I have read for a while. And by the way wee Nippy is playing the waiting game, she thinks that the Brexit car crash that is beginning to unfold will give her the opportunity to have another crack and win. She may be right.

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    1. Brexit car crash? That was supposed to have happened already. Still no sign...

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    2. Aldo, when you jump from the 80th floor, your body is still intact as you pass the 40th floor. As for the clown circus that passes for politics in London nowadays, car crash is too pleasant a term.

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    3. I think you come under the nasty but dim category.

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    4. Except that if things were really going to be as bad as the europhiles have made out, then we would already be seeing massive business and capital flight from this country, accompanied by a recession. We could expect to see it becoming more difficult for the government to borrow money. These things aren't happening. The economy is growing. Interest rates on our sovereign debt remain low.

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  7. Well I stumbled across this nonsense and I it's with some regret that I spent any time on it.
    Poorly researched and a huge misunderstanding of origins of civil rights and IRA I'm North. I think the author is unaware of difficult situation and discrimination faced by Catholic community in NI. I do believe she thinks the Irish are English in some odd way.
    Strange what Brexit can do to people. Enjoy trading with the USA MAGA. Incidentally 30000 people work in poultry industry in UK.

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  8. Bizarre ranting which goes far beyond insulting into hilarity.
    We shall leave aside someone in Aberdeen musing about accents...

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  9. Ireland tried constitutional route to independence under O'Connell and the Home Rulers who won a majority in Ireland at every election 1874-1918. Home rule was passed, democratically by Houses of parliament 1912-14 but derailed by formation of an armed militant organisation by the minority: UVF. Tories and much of the establishment sides with them. Nationalists responded by forming the Irish Volunteers. The episode showed that Britain was not an honest broker so revolution inevitably followed.

    Read aome history before spouting such hate filled offensive drivel.

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  10. Ireland was a food producer for Britain until 1922. The British did nothing to develop the place. Within ten years of independence industrialisation had begun, we had built the Shannon hydro-electric damn, we had begun to diversify with support from European expertise.

    Ireland has no nostalgia for empire or union.

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  11. This article is simply absolutely ridiculous...
    Entertaining, yet absolutely ridiculous.
    I think that I speak for many people when I say that we grow tired of the stupidity we have to listen to in the Brexit debate...

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  12. What a pile of pish from a complete wingnut

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    1. You are right sir, a pile of PISH !

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  13. Really? Read history or goodness sake.

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  14. Ireland could enter into a free trade agreement with Britain - if it left the EU. It could also do free trade deals with other nations, like the US. None of these deals would require political, judicial or monetary union, unlike the EU, which demands all of these things.

    In the end, it's entirely up to Ireland. But we're out.

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    1. Ireland already trades with the US. The US is Ireland's biggest trade partner.

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    2. It trades with America through EU imposed trade barriers and tariffs. If those were to come down, Ireland and America could do much more trade than they currently do.

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    3. No. You want Ireland to leave the EU because it would see British interests.

      Stop pretending you give a carp about Ireland. Your ahistorical anti-Irish ranting show your contempt and betray your true feelings about Ireland in the EU.

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    4. Ireland is barely a blip on our radar mate. The loss of free trade with Ireland will not hurt Britain but the loss of free trade with Britain will most definitely hurt Ireland. I'm suggesting a way out that allows you to do roaring trade with Britain, America and as many other nations as you can cut deals with whilst at the same time escaping the stifling and authoritarian EU. But if you don't want that, fine. No skin off our nose.

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  15. "They want therefore both an international and a non-international relationship, i.e. they want a contradiction." It's not a contradiction - it's called a Confederation. Some people even call it a Union, as Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg do. They all have sovereignty, but they also have a non-international relationship, in so far as they deal with several domestic issues together.
    I do wish you'd think a bit more before writing. As time goes on you appear to think less and write more.

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    1. Do they really have sovereignty if their central bank, supreme court and lawmaking ability reside in an international institution, rather than within their own borders - borders which, because of said institution, don't really exist in any meaningful sense?

      That's not sovereignty and the situation can only get worse. The EU is hungry for power. Every few years a new treaty is signed, taking more powers away from member states. In fairness, they revealed their intentions in the 1950s - "ever closer union". British politicians must have lied through their teeth in 1975 to get a yes vote in the first referendum. Now, the mistake is being corrected. Better late than never!

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  16. Moronic stuff. Followed the blend of ignorance and arrogance that tends to go hand and hand with the pro-Brexit, anti-Irish writings.

    You deride the SNP for not having an 'intellectual foundation' yet what you have written seems to lack any intellectual input whatsoever.

    Ireland suffered post independence from hyper-nationalist, isolationist economic policies (the Trade War didn't help).
    Do you see any parralell to the Brexit rhetoric you harp on about? Is the glorious irony not completely lost on you? Ireland sovereignty; bad. British sovereignty; good.

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    1. But Irish sovereignty has diminished and will further diminish as part of the EU. Eventually, they will be merely a region within an EU superstate.

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    2. I do enjoy the tin foil hat musings of this EU super state from some Brexit voters. EUSSR some call it I think. It has no grounds.

      The sovereignty argument is one aspect of the pure bollocks fed from Murdoch's papers to simple, naive minds. 'Take back control! Britain is sovereign!' - it's all shite.

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    3. The intention is laid out in the founding document; "ever closer union". If you're going to get 'ever closer' then eventually you become a nation or something indistinguishable from one.

      And have you ever considered why, every few years, there is a new treaty introduced to govern European affairs? In my lifetime (34 years) we've had the Single European Act, Maastricht, Nice and Lisbon. Each time, power is centralised a little bit more. It is clear that Europe intends to be a nation. We can either be a region in that nation or we can get out. The Irish face the same choice.

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    4. Again, tin foil hattery. The 'ever closer iunion' is the same political rehtoric that is contained within any diplomatic writings. Also, bear in mind it was written admist a hangover of the worst War of all time which rocked the continent. Of course they're going to want these countries which were at war to come 'closer together'.Britain joined on the pretense of this 'ever closer union'.

      Britain has an obsession with sovereignty, we get it. You voted to leave, fair play to you. Ireland realises the benefits of the EU. We have rejected treaties which threatened our neautrality and revisions were made.

      Ireland faces no choice on this EU federal 'super nation' as it does not exist.

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    5. But it's certainly well on its way. You already answer to a court, a parliament, and a central bank in a foreign land. There is talk of qualified majority voting (the end of the national veto) and 'fiscal transfers' - the rich parts of the EU permanently bailing out the poorer parts. Borders are being dismantled (free movement of people and Schengen).

      That sounds very much like the creation of a European nation. It's not tin foil hat stuff. It's happening in front of our eyes. It's the reason for the brexit vote.

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    6. But we are part of this court, parliament and central bank. These minor concessions (which countries across Europe have made) have allowed our economy to prosper.

      Luckily, no change can be made to our constitution can be made without a referendum. So, should a vote come about which threatens an 'EU Superstate', Ireland can reject it by means of a vote.

      Yet, as I said originally, Irish practising self-determination is at odds with the agenda of the author of this piece. The thinly veiled racial digs at a nation, people and culture, which the author has a phobia of, point to this.

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    7. A tiny, tiny small part of it. The most grievous loss of sovereignty is the loss of your own currency. There are times when a nation state needs to devalue its own currency - to become competitive or to deal with debts. Ireland now cannot do this. Irish monetary policy is now in lock step with what best suits Germany. At some point, there will be a divergence between what Ireland needs and what Germany needs. When that time comes, you'll be told to keep quiet.

      "We can reject it (EU federalism) by means of a vote"

      And then you'll be instructed to vote again until you provide the correct answer. Isn't there a precedent for that in Ireland very recently?

      To be honest, it'll more likely be death by a thousand cuts. Lots of wee changes will be made gradually and over time that seem quite reasonable. But then the cumulative effect will be that you'll wake up one day with a Parish Council in Dublin.

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    8. > The most grievous loss of sovereignty is the loss of your own currency.

      Well, I suppose that's true if you've already lost your language. Seriously, if you're trying to tell us what's best for Ireland, well, we're back at colonialism and you haven't even progressed to being patronising...

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    9. A tiny, tiny part of it? Ireland is a small country with a population of under 5 million. We are punching well above our weight in terms of economic prosperity. Ireland now hosts the European HQ of Apple, Accenture and many other global firms. We realise what it means to be part of the current of globalised economy. Ireland is currently the fastest growing EU economy and one of the strongest in the EU.

      Ah the usual 'vote til you get it right' jibe. Both the Lisbon and Nice treaties were rejected. They were then renegotiated, revised and were passed by referenda. Policies such as our neutrality (which throws this EU army fantasy out the window) were protected.

      The currency aspect was something which popped up at the time of austerity alright to be fair. Iceland was able to devalue their currency and tell the banks to fuck off. But the Euro is very strong at the moment. Much stronger than the Irish punt ever was.

      If Ireland is a 'Parish Council in an EU super state', what does that make Scotland?

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    10. As a Scottish Unionist I consider myself British, first and foremost.

      So you were told to vote again, not once, but TWICE? Wow! That is an eye opener!

      What were the substantive changes that caused Ireland to change its mind? Because I heard that there was some superficial rewording and that the people just voted yes to get it over and done with.

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    11. I merely stated a fact, Sparks. Not being patronising or a colonialist. If you lose your currency, that is a terrible loss of independence.

      I find it quite ironic that you accuse me of imperialism whilst submitting to European imperialism. The British empire is dead, the European one very much alive and kicking. I think you need to move your clocks forward a century.

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    12. @Aldo
      Ah so you know nothing of these referenda, only the usual 'you lot were made vote twice' jibes which are often spouted.
      Ireland, unlike Britain, has a constitution, that should the need for a change arise, a referendum is called. With Nice, the revisions ensured we woulnd't have to join a common defence policy (i.e.) our neutrality was protected. With Lisbon, the revisions also protected our neutrality as well as our rules on abortion. Neutrality is the main stipulation which has caused Irish people to reject these referenda. Other things were revised but neutrality was the main bug-bear. It's readily available if you bothered to look it up.

      With regard to this European empire, the irony very much escapes you. All the talk from the Brexit side is about regniting the Commonwealth. And the isolationist 'Take back control!' and 'We must ensure British sovereignty' is the same rhetoric we would have heard a century ago; Britian's own 'Make America Great Again'.

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    13. A Commonwealth free trade agreement would be just that - a free trade agreement. Britain would not seek to control India. Australia would not seek to host a court that could overrule a government in Africa. It would simply be a trading agreement. No empire. No EU style 'you must bend to our will' bs. Just a trade agreement.

      International cooperation is a great thing but it must be cooperation, not a merger.

      With regard to the Nice and Lisbon referenda, are you telling me that Europe attempted two major treaty changes in the space of a decade that didn't take account of Irish neutrality?

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    14. You don't get it. The whole 'lets all of a sudden kick-start the Commonwealth' is always said through a 'wrap the flag around me' kind of patriotic mouth-piece.

      Obviously you aren't going to start up the Empire again. It's more of a tease as Brexit voters are often (but not always) the wrap the flag around me type. And with Gibraltar and Ireland, it feels like we're going back in time.

      As for the referenda, the first re-do removed the self defence policy, and the second safe guarded the neutrality stance.

      I am under no illusion that the EU has plenty of problems. Ireland suffered under austerity. We know our fututre is better in than out however.

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    15. But the Irish identity will be completely diluted through the continuing centralisation of the EU. You're not going to keep your veto forever. The existing EU elite see it as a nuisance rather than a crucial guarantor of democracy. Once they move to qualified majority voting, you will no longer be a nation state in the traditional sense. You may even reach a point where Irexit is no longer possible, overruled by the commission or a court in Brussels. You can keep going in that direction

      Or...

      You can leave the EU and join a free trade agreement with Britain, America and the old British Commonwealth. No courts, no parliaments, no single currency, no unelected commission, no freedom of movement. Just free trade.

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    16. Irish identity is fine. Visit Ireland; you'll see it. We're not marching around the place with the EU flag draped around us. The veto is only on the Brexit deal; we know that. Qualified majority voting already exists. We have a weighted voting share currently. Irexit would never be impossible; no matter how undesirable it is.

      I really think you should make a point backed up by fact, not by speculation which is in keeping with your confirmation bias.

      We already trade with the US as I said; they are our largest trading partner! We will continue to trade with the UK after Brexit. It's not difficult!

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    17. You trade with the US, but not freely - and pretty soon you will lose free trade with the UK. All I'm saying is there are other economic clubs available. You do not need to stay a part of one that tells you what to do and disrespects your neutrality and culture.

      However, that is entirely up to the people of Ireland. Your right to stay within the EU, if you wish to, is sacrosanct - but so is our right to leave it. Please pass that on to your premier.

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    18. The Taoiseach knows ye've voted it in. He's dismayed at the fact that 14 months after a Brexit vote, there is no plan in place for the Irish border. Yet the British right wing are obsessed with any 'meddling' and pull the usual line 'keep your nose out' even though he is obliged to be involved due to the GFA.

      The EU is our biggest trade partner as a collective. We trade with Belgium as much as we do with the UK. There is no logic behind Ireland leaving the EU.

      As I've mentioned, our neutrality is safeguarded in our constitution. As for our culture, the EU has made no such attack our slight on it.
      In fact, this piece is the only thing that disrespects it. Mocking a language as its different. Give me a break.

      Delete
    19. They did ask you to vote on two treaties that ignored your deeply held views on some major issues. I'm no master of organisation but I'd probably hammer out all this stuff while the treaty is still being written, BEFORE it is put to a national referendum and rejected.

      Best of luck in the EU, anon. One day we'll have the long view on all this stuff and we'll know which one was correct.

      Delete
    20. You're right, you are no master of organisation. These EU wide treaties were passed without referenda in many EU states as they didn't require one. The 2nd Lisbon Treaty made reassurances which safeguarded neutrality. There was no outright line saying there's an EU army on the way. We exercised our democracy on two occaisions and got ourselves a better deal.

      I don't buy this 'the EU is a sinking ship' as much as I don't buy that 'the UK is a sinking ship post Brexit'. Britain will be fine. Ireland is better off in the EU however.

      Delete
    21. @ Anonymous.
      This idea/reality of Irish neutrality - I suspect that implies that there will be no Irish contingent of the EU Armed Force. The problem here is that the Irish might have enshrined their neutrality with the EU , but that does not guarantee that any state that the EU uses that force against will recognise this. That is a bit thin.
      The EU is going to play a significant part on the world stage but being part of an entity that provides communal defence does seem a fundamental contradiction for a neutral country.How can a country be part of an active organisation and not put it's people on the line and yet still be considered seperate when the conflict occurs ? Does the RoI expect the EU forces to protect Irish nationals abroad as it might other EU nationals ?
      I am very aware of the Irish blood spilt , at least during the Napoleonic wars and later.(Also, the RoI is not shy of putting it's peacekeepers into harms way). However, everyone of those I believe to be individual volunteers - even at the cost of being criminals in Ireland because of it(there has never been conscription in the island of Ireland -I think) .

      Delete
    22. @ Anonymous
      I am not intending to pick an argument - there are however a lot of incongruities that the Irish stand on these matters create.
      Not that the UK has never created a few of it's own of course.

      Delete
  17. Your misunderstanding of the EU seems to be matched by your failure to understand Ireland.

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  18. People need to realise what EU austerity did to the republic and particularly it's youth , an EU, IMF and OECD report tells us it cost the republic a quarter of it's workforce jobs and 10% of its youth to emigration.?

    The irony is most of that youth came to the UK for work, a country for the most part shielded from the severest of austerity that the republic suffered from the EU, with a further irony being if those that left the country remained the unemployment rate would be well above 20% and if discouraged workers and involuntary part-time workers were included, overall unemployment would have been nearer 30%.

    While Ireland has a high unemployment rate among those aged 15-24 — put at 30.4% in 2012 — the OECD said that it was closer to 45% if involuntary part-time work and workers marginally attached to the labour market were taken into account.

    While some of the country’s migration involves non-Irish returning home, emigration has had a significant impact, with the number of people aged 15-24 in the republic decreasing 9% between 2007 and 2012, according to European Commission figures.

    Ongoing austerity policies assume rightly, according to the report, that the crisis was caused by poorly regulated banks, but also blames government profligacy.

    Extensive budget rules brought in under the fiscal compact treaty, which Ireland adopted when it passed a referendum in 2012, are actually preventing or slowing recovery in countries like Ireland, according to the report, as they are not allowing for the investment policies vital to creating growth and jobs.

    The report points out that with an additional €2bn to be taken out of the economy in the budget for 2015, the total adjustment from 2008 will be approximately €33bn, equivalent to 18% of the country’s GDP as forecast for 2016 /17.

    So when nationalists want to a reason of staying part of the UK they could do no worse than take lessons from the republic and ask itself the big question , if as admitted by Kereven and others austerity and suffering will happen if they ever get a yes , what good is that yes if we lose the children and the future to emigration , we would in fact lose Scotland and all that it means to be Scottish including our brotherly ties with the rest of the UK.

    So folks could do no worse than read the paper from University College Cork, called Irish Emigration in an Age of Austerity , written by Irial Glynn, Tomás Kelly and Piaras MacÉinrí

    ReplyDelete
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    1. i'd go read that paper if you hadn't provided such a good precis, thanks!

      Delete
  19. Honestly this has me looking at my cup of tea and wondering what else was in it. Absolutely mental.

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    1. Probably your usual two spoons of ignorance.

      Delete
  20. That chip on the shoulder Effie mentioned has surfaced in the responses above - big time. A none way street of respect indeed. P.S. I'm entitled to ROI citizenship through my mum who was born in Derry before the partition.

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    1. Think it more highlights the strikingly anti-Irish underbelly of certain parts of Scotland. The people on Twitter sharing this highlight this stance.

      The responses have been of bewilderment. Bewildermnet to the fact that many British people still seem to be completely ignorant when it comes to Ireland.

      Delete
  21. "The Republic of Ireland is going to end up in a different trading bloc to its largest trade partner"

    You're not going to believe it, so this is probably a waste of time, but anyway ... the UK is not Ireland's largest trade partner. The Euro area is. Ireland also does more trade with the USA than the UK.
    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1028937.shtml

    The UK, on the other hand, actually *is* severing ties with its largest trading partner.

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    1. Ireland has two ecomomies. The multinational one and the SME one. The SME economy export 40% of its output to Britain. That's the economy which provides the majority of employment throughout the country. That's the one which will be impacted by Brexit most. Dublin will do really well out of Brexit. See the 60 crains on the skyline building offices for the financial services leaving London. BtW most people I know pronounce their Th properly!

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  22. I think you are right Effie but of course the republicans don't accept that the loyalists have any rights because "they stole our lands" they "must" submit" and they think that the IRA "won" the last "troubles" and could do it again. So from their point of view NI should accept the inevitable (catholic birth rates are higher and they have maintained separate schooling in the north) The position post brexit is bewildering to them as they cannot accept that they are now part of the EU empire from which we rightly distance ourselves Possibly they think that the new EU army forming up might come to their aid in border disputes with the UK but that seems far-fetched I can't believe that our putative masters in Brussels would contemplate that for a few decades at least! Separately though any disagreement with nationalist opinion in ROI will attract a barrage of unpleasantness because hatred of Britain is endemic and taught in their schools in the same way that Argentina teaches that the Falklands were Argentinian. When I was at school in Ireland the last page of the history books was 1916 not 1922 or the civil war.

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    1. I can see you never read beyond 1922. The Irish Senate in 1922 was designed to give voice to minorities. The govt appointed 20 unionists to the 60 seat Senate. The first Irish President was a Protestant. Minorities have served in govt and highest roles in the state apparatus.

      Remind me how Northern Ireland's much larger minority fared? We're there efforts to create a society inclusive of them? No the system was rigged in 1921 to under represent them. They faced discrimination. The Republic of Ireland has a much much better record on thin regard yet people like you still spout this drivel masquerading as an argument.

      Delete
    2. You are perfectly right the Proddies were unfair to the taighes but in the late sixties when civil rights finally forced catholic emancipation in the north the IRA turned it into a shooting match and caused two decades of murder on the province on the back of that proposition. This of course why so many Catholics vote for SF as they think their rights originate with them rather than the SDLP. Until the ROI stop pushing for a united Ireland and giving succour to the IRA murder will continue. Yes I know they amended the constitution to say they no longer had a claim on NI but their every action says otherwise.

      Delete
    3. It's actually not about Catholic and Protestant either.that is The British view of Ireland. It is about a legacy of colonialism and national identity.

      Yoir comments about the Republic of ireland and the IRA are ridoculous.The Republic of Ireland absolutely did not give any support to the IRA. It was at war with the IRA. Irish government from the beginning were only interested in end g the violebe: 1973 Sunningfale agreement, 1985 Anglo-Irish agreement, Downing street Declaration and the Good Friday Agreement.one Irish Taoiseach even said he was neutral on the Northern issue. Republic of Ireland has bent over backwards to promote reconciliation and understand unionism. There are even public debates about how to accommodate their culture and concerns:changing the flag and anthem for instance.


      Ireland might have been wrong on articles 2 and 3. But everybody was wrong to abandon the Nothern Ireland minority and everybody did.

      Delete
    4. Here, cut the bullshit. You weren't schooled in Ireland if you believe the teaching of history ended after 1916.
      The UK doesn't even broach upon Irish history at aelemnetary level in any meaningful way.
      There exists a 'knowledge gap' when it comes to Ireland and its history within the UK.
      Naomi O'Leary and Tim McInerney adress this knowledge gap in their 'Irish Passport' podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-239107869-534543383/the-knowledge-gap

      Delete
    5. Ireland is a small country and never smaller than in the rural parts nobody's business is everyone's I would agree that the Gardai hate the IRA and the govt. public position was against the IRA however the special branch would have known all the terrorist sympathisers and if allowed would have made safe haven operations by the IRA impossible south of the border. If Britain had had real cross border co-operation the IRA would have been cleared up as in the fifties. The issue goes back hundreds of years there is hardly a country in Europe or the world that would not like to have its territory re-positioned to some advantageous time in the past. But hey that's how wars start so here's an offer rejoin the UK and as the Irish are so passionate they'd be running the whole shooting match in no time at all!

      Delete
    6. Son, you've some neck to be yammering about the IRA when your government has just gone into a coalition with the political wing of the UVF. *Who are still shooting people today*. So how much of westminster funding is set aside for ammunition and semtex for loyalist terrorists exactly? Or does that come under "don't ask, don't tell"? :)

      Delete
    7. @neutral

      "Rejoin the UK", "I went to school in Ireland".

      You're fond of writing absolute drivel. Not an ounce of truth or sense to any of it.

      Delete
    8. Gosh touched a nerve have I? You will know you're propagandising PIRA bullshit "semtex" has a special significance for the PIRA as they were past masters at using it against anybody the poor old UVF didn't have friends like Gaddafi to supply them with such good killing materials After brexit it might be interesting to see what happens if PIRA goes back into action. I don't think that the UK will be in a position to be so fore-bearing in responding esp. as today tracking tech is almost unimaginably improved.

      Delete
    9. So to cut the shite and translate, you're happy that your government is now officially in power with a political party that supports terrorism.

      At least we see you now.

      Delete
    10. @neutral

      Yes. Your stupidty is offensive. The knowledge gap is alive and well.

      Delete
    11. The DUP isn't in coalition with the Tories. They're not even in government. Indeed, the vast majority of Conservative MPs aren't in government. The government consists of about 20-40 people, all of them Tories, none of them DUP.

      Delete
    12. Sparks, the DUP are not the political wing of any paramilitary organisation—unlike your Provision Sinn Féin (as your Gerry said in response to a cry of ‘Bring back the IRA’: ‘They haven’t gone away, you know.’). As for your ‘UVF. *Who are still shooting people today*’: what are you Irish republicans doing? The name Adrian Ismay ring a bell? Conor McKee? Michael McGibbon? You lot haven’t stopped killing. Then there’s all the attacks that don’t make headlines because they fail to cause the deaths their Irish republican perpetrators intended, such as the February bomb attack on the Londonderry home of a policeman. The PSNI report 11 ‘paramilitary style shootings’ by ‘republican groups’ (compared to 3 by ‘loyalist groups’) and a further 7 ‘paramilitary style assaults’ this year to date alone.

      Delete
    13. The Catholics in the north have been treated awfully and what is worse , Westminster knew about it long before the Troubles started. This is indeed unforgivable.
      I wonder what the real feeling was in Westminster when they made promises about independence but there was not a clean break?
      What is remarkably telling is that the RoI was offered NI in 1938/9 but turned the offer down. Inheriting the IRA was not worth the cost.

      Delete
  23. Poor Effie will stroke out when she realises Ireland has a veto on post Brexit trade deals, and arguably on WTO schedules...

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    1. Ireland's WTO seat is held by the EU, as is Britain's currently. When we leave, we get it back.

      Delete
    2. https://www.ft.com/content/42b59126-794c-3a0b-b19a-6d4b0a11c990

      Delete
  24. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  25. So, maybe you shouldn't write such an antagonistic article about the Republic of Ireland when you're about to need them to like you rather a lot in the next year or so.

    Funny thing, that. See, because EU law has primacy in Ireland, the constitution here has to be modified when things in the EU change enough to require a new treaty. I know that kind of thing might be a foreign concept to the average brexit voter as you don't have much experience with referendums and seem to have completely lost the run of yourselves with your first go, but it's how things are done over here.

    Now, since the peace process in Northern Ireland is legally based on the ECHR which the UK is talking about leaving, you'd need some sort of third party body used as the arbitration backstop in NI and *that* means a new treaty, which that means that the Republic of Ireland has to have a referendum on accepting that new treaty or not. And they have a veto.

    In other words, the average Paddy Blogs like me over here gets a vote on whether the UK gets the brexit deal they want or, you know, not. "Not" in this case meaning you'd revert to WTO rules, no membership of euratom, and a few other fun things that would basically revert the UK to a standard of living somewhere in the 1950s and rationing (you guys needed a world war to get self-sufficient in food last time, and you're less self-sufficient today than you were in '38, which is why your farmers are panicing about not growing all the UK needs and not having enough cheap labour to pick produce at harvest).

    And yes, our economy's going to be badly affected by brexit, because almost a full fourteen percent (yes, 14%, it's quite a lot) of our trade is with the UK; so a lot of people here would have no problem cutting off the pocket money of the people who harmed our economy for the sake of being racist.

    So maybe it would be wiser for you to not alternate between: not knowing much about history; patronising people badly; and threatening them.

    Just sayin'...

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    1. You should write fiction the UK can manage if WTO rules apply As for stalling a deal of some description over the border you will be in same position as Spain re Gib. But ask yourself will Germany agree with you that their industries should be plunged into chaos for ROI? Maybe you think German u-boats will be unleashed against food supplies coming from the USA Canada Australia New Zealand? You know what will happen you'll be "invited" to vote again until you get it right!

      Delete
    2. Oh dear. You really aren't aware of how referendums and the EU work, are you? German industry won't be plunged into chaos, the UK just isn't that important to them. And sure, you can import food from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and even the EU. You'll just have to either pay 40-odd% more than now for basics because of tariffs, transport costs and being over a barrel; or accept unhealthy food like Taiwan is having to do with their US imports of beef and pork right now for the same reason.

      Or, you know, both. While fruit literally rots in the field because you haven't enough migrant workers to pick it and your average ukip voter doesn't want to lower themselves to hard work for low pay like some common dirty foreigner...

      Delete
    3. Sparks, how did we survive in this country before 1973? How, indeed, does any country survive that is not a member of the EU? (the majority of them).

      Trade with the EU will continue, but it will be slightly more expensive. If we strike free trade deals with the USA and the Commonwealth - and continue trade relatively cheaply with our European neighbours - then it is highly unlikely things will be as bad as you portray them.

      Immigrants to pick fruit and veg? That's a problem of welfarism. Tell the unemployed to get out and start picking or else no benefits.

      Delete
    4. an archetypal hypocrite?

      castigates the author for allegedly issuing threats in one breath...

      "So maybe it would be wiser for you to not alternate between: not knowing much about history; patronising people badly; and threatening them"

      and calmly issues their own in another...

      "fun things that would basically revert the UK to a standard of living somewhere in the 1950s and rationing"

      i can only speak for myself but i'm not minded to yield to threats nor intimidation and would gladly take my chances.

      also be careful for what you wish, suffering etches itself deep within the memory banks of a population.

      such memories can be weaponised and wielded politically.

      as the author rightly points out there's no widespread animosity in the UK towards the republic, there's no appetite for it, even its existence barely registers on the day-to-day radar.

      i am at a loss to wonder why anyone would be so brazen to risk that.

      yours,
      a remain voter.

      Delete
    5. Aldo, you don't remember before 1973. If you actually remembered having been an adult in 1973, you'd probably remember the end of rationing as a childhood memory. In other words, yes, it's that recent and the life most of us enjoy today is *not* how it always was in the past.

      bucksboy, I think you're missing the point. We didn't get a vote going into brexit. And it's going to hurt our economy, even as the banks leave London and send some business our way (Bank of America just announced Dublin would be its EMEA hub on friday for example).

      And if you hurt our economy and *then* ask us to vote to aid yours while also being a patronising lot, well, you might want to look up how the Ultimatum Experiment *always* goes. It's one of the more well-known and well-studied experiments in economics and psychology.

      Delete
    6. Yet the older generation, who can remember before 1973, voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU. Their memories of pre-1973 can't be that bad.

      Rationing was caused by WW2 and the struggle to rebuild afterwards - a situation that was Germany's fault. Now they seek domination of Europe by less violent methods and have largely succeeded.

      Delete
    7. ...you're voting for economic suicide (and note tha t sterling hasn't been this weak since we were last having small issues with a potato crop)... and your basis is "Them Huns Are Looking Mighty Suspect Again Ma, Pass Me The Shotgun!"?

      Wow. I feel sorry for your kids.

      Delete
    8. perhaps the eu should've worked a little harder for those remain votes...

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/20/british-deserters-will-face-the-consequences-warns-eus-juncker/

      tenor of the language is as dissappointing now as it was back then. the results speak for themselves.

      Delete
    9. The EU should have worked harder... at interfering with a referendum of a sovereign member state.

      I'm sorry, which side of the argument is it that you *think* you're on? :D

      Delete
    10. The EU could have given more on freedom of movement and swung it to a remain vote, just about. But the EU isn't interested in reform. Its upper echelons want a superstate and probably saw continuing British membership as a roadblock to that.

      Delete
    11. Aldo, again, point's over here. Brexit was an internal decision of a member state. If you wanted the EU to make it for you, you wouldn't have had the referendum in the first place, you'd be voting to ditch westminster in favour of brussels altogether.

      So they stayed out of it and now you're saying that because they did respect your sovereignty, you voted to leave...

      Delete
    12. There was an attempted renegotiation before the referendum was called. Europe gave Cameron fuck all and so the British people voted accordingly - out. Had Europe been more conciliatory during the negotiation phase, brexit could have been avoided. But we are dealing with an organisation so dogmatic, so inflexible and fanatical, that they couldn't do some simple reforms to keep a hold of a sizeable chunk of their GDP, trade and budget - as well as a huge source of their military and intelligence capability.

      Delete
    13. aldo, that's a load of cobblers, and if you're not even going to learn current affairs, let alone history, what's the point? You'll be back looking for us to accept your brexit deal in a year or so anyway, it's not like we need to convince you of anything.

      Delete
    14. Nope, just a factual account of recent history.

      The Brexit deal has to be agreed by both sides - the UK and the EU. If we're not happy we can simply walk away. A trade agreement with the US awaits - and it would be the biggest such agreement in the world, by GDP.

      Delete
    15. Aldo - Immigrants to pick fruit and veg? That's a problem of welfarism. Tell the unemployed to get out and start picking or else no benefits.

      I have been waiting a long time for someone else to write that.

      Delete
    16. It seems rather odd that the EU can make exceptions for some but not others , what is fundamental seems to be flexible.
      Abortion is considered a human right context - either for the mother or the foetus.
      Communal defence in a political pact usually does not usually offer exception.
      The EU compromised on these for a smaller state - little cost apart from precedent. It seems that the EU was prepared for a larger cost with Brexit - apart from they never assumed that the British political elite would be desperate enough to get domestic votes by offering a referendum that was genuinely democratic.
      Some day we will read the memoir of Cameron and find that he wasn't that stupid after all.

      Delete
  26. This is spot on, an eye opener for some, well done.

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  27. The grasp on the British/Irish relationship, and history, here is astoundingly outdated. The writer appears to be the only one with a massive chip shoulder on the shoulder. Re Brexit, if the last week has shown us anything its that the Irish PM had a better understanding of the situation than most of the UK politicians, press, and public. Ireland is mopping up the fleeing London based multinationals, while Brexiteers are wrapping themselves in the flag, with their fingers in their ears, as the some very grim times approach.

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    1. "some very grim times approach"

      oh please.

      Delete
    2. Grim times were WW1 and WW2, the depression of the 1930s, the austerity of the 1950s, the stagflation and industrial unrest of the 1970s and 80s. These were tough times. Our people pulled through with a sense of humour and patriotism. Today's generation seriously needs to grow a pair. There are too many hand wringing pussies and treacherous cnuts determined to see their own country fail.

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    3. Aldo, the UK pulled through WW1 thanks to the US and the french, through WW2 thanks to the french and the russians, through the 1950s thanks to the americans, and you made it through the 70s and 80s by selling off your manufacturing base and abandoning the north of england. There wasn't a whole lot of humour and patriotism doing the heavy lifting.

      As to today's generation, you've sold the places they could have worked, you're selling off the hospitals they'd get healthcare in, you've sold off the transport infrastructure they'd use to go to work, you've destroyed the economy they have to survive in and you've gotten out of investing in them by having them pay for everything you got for free while getting rid of everything they're being forced to pay for, like jobs and pensions and homes and any kind of financial security. And that's before we get to the little point of destroying the environment and causing irreversible destructive climate change that you'll be long dead before having to witness while they're dealing with the worst threat to the species since the last ice age.

      Frankly, if you want to talk about cats and genitals, it's not the current generation who've been caught buried in the family pet...

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    4. What exactly did the French do in WW2 apart from roll over and let Germany tickle their tummy? America came in during the dying embers of WW1. The US did make a huge contribution during WW2 but could only do so as a result of Great Britain being available as a base for the D-day invasion. Russia I take my hat off to, but they were propped up during their darkest days by the Arctic convoys sent from Britain. Learn a wee bit about history please.

      As for the rest of your post, if Britain is such a shitehole, why are we the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world with one of the highest standards of living and people falling over themselves to get here, from Eastern Europe to the furthest reaches of Africa and Asia?

      Your hatred of Britain is obvious. I don't hate the Irish, just think they're mugs if they think Europe in the long run affords them any meaningful level of independence.

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    5. > What exactly did the French do in WW2 apart from roll over and let Germany tickle their tummy?

      You know that film playing in the cinema right now? Dunkirk? You know, where the entire BEF dropped rifles and ran for blighty? Why do you think the German military, which had just raced clear across europe faster than any army in human history, couldn't get to dunkirk fast enough to sink the ships evacuating the troops? Do you think the 40,000 french troops who held off seven German divisions in Lille while the BEF retreated across the channel might have had a little to do with it? No? Five thousand french soldiers dying fighting against four infantry divisions and three panzer divisions so your lads could get home, you just forgot that did you?

      If they'd not fought off the Germans then, they would have wiped you out on the beaches at Dunkirk and you wouldn't have had anyone left to fight them off when they made their way across the channel at their leisure.

      And as for the russians, the films are all about D-Day and the americans, but the russians were busy breaking the back of the germans on the eastern front so that when D-Day happened, the US and UK troops faced hitler youth and old men, not combat-ready troops. Hell, you couldn't even train for D-Day without a single E-boat nearly wiping out a large percentage of the invasion force and that was with the bulk of the German military pointed the other way. As to Artic convoys to the UK, son, read some stats sometime. The US sent more to russia in a month than you guys had to send in a year.

      And you're a large economy *after* you joined the EU you gombeen, not beforehand.
      https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp
      See that point there in the early 1970s when it goes from flat-line to a hiccup to a near-geometric curve upwards? That's from joining the EEC you dingleberry. That's what you're after voting to leave. See that flatline prior to '73? That's what you've voted to return to. Well done.

      And hatred of Britian? Son, my grandfather went around Cairo, up V beach and across the Somme wearing the King's uniform. My grandmother's from Plymouth. I no more hate the UK than I hate Ireland. But pillocks like you who vote to screw over their own kids because you "don't like the darkies"? Yeah, gits like you I hate because you're why we never seem to keep anything good in this world.

      Delete
    6. That's quite the rant! Unfortunately it was all either irrelevant, wrong or gibberish.

      France famously fell like a house of cards as soon as the war started. Hitler clearly made a decision not to annihilate the troops at Dunkirk - which he could have done fairly easily if he'd wanted to. The reasons for that are a mystery but perhaps he thought he could yet make peace or an alliance - or perhaps he called off his forces out of some sense of racial brotherhood (he was big on all that stuff you know). He's dead so it will remain a mystery. But to say that France propped up Britain during the war is absolutely insane and a complete warping of history.

      The EU economy is shrinking as a percentage of the world economy - and the UK was a big economy, although ailing, when it entered. Our economy improved due to Thatcherism and the shrinking of the state, not because we were a member of a protectionist club with falling share of world GDP.

      I don't hate "darkies" (a racial term you have chosen to use). I just want my country to control it's own affairs and I think Ireland should probably do likewise, although that's your own business. Why do these opinions make you go full retard?

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    7. I agree with Aldo you sparks are a troll? surely must be o'wise how could you come out with such obv. balderdash and that's being kind. nighty night

      Delete
  28. Talking about WW2, let’s never forget that the IRA were chummying up to the Nazis—they even bombed Coventry before Göring had ever heard of the place (5 men and women killed, aged 15 to 82, and 70 wounded).

    [I]n July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if “German forces should land in Ireland, they will land … as friends and liberators of the Irish people”.
    (http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841)

    And, of course, the IRA’s ‘Chief of Staff’ Séan Russell died on a Jerry U-boat returning him to Ireland from Germany after receiving training. Irish republicans later memorialised this collaborator with a statue after the war, where it stands to this day, proudly commemorating the IRA’s collaboration with Hitler (in contrast, the IRA blew up a statue commemorating the defeat of another tyrant, Nelson’s Pillar in Dublin in 1966).

    Ireland was also a haven for Nazi war-criminals after the war (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html), in start contrast to their treatment of their fellow Irish returning from fighting the Nazis under British colours.

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    1. Funnily enough, the SNP were pals with the Nazis at the same time. What is it with these guys and their love for der fuhrer?

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    2. The Irish PM sent the Third Reich a telegram offering condolences on the death of Hitler.
      Heaven knows how it was delivered.

      Delete
  29. Before anyone expresses an opinion on the ROI, the EU, or the so called 'Celtic Tiger phenomenon (so beloved of the SSnats) please read or download onto your kindle, Fintan O'Tool's book 'Ship of Fools'. The corruption in the ROI is positively third world, we have nothing in common with this state though much in common with their people.

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    1. Or you could look at this
      https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016

      But, hey,facts.

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    2. The confirmation bias is prevalent here Brian. Effie herself said in a tweet that Ireland's economy was akin to Venezuela. Based on nothing but her own Hiberno-phobia, but sure look, it suits the anti-Irish narrative.

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    3. Ireland is the awkward one for Unionists because it has done so much better since independence.

      Ireland has its problems but it consistently scores high on:education; free press;living standards and is no longer the place it was a century ago when agricultural and under British control. Irish people are educated,outward looking, liberal and self confident today.

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    4. Oh dear MrCameronian. Isn't learning from mistakes important?

      Exhibit A:
      Ireland's tough lobbying rules spark cries for similar laws elsewhere: http://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-lobbying-clampdown-model-for-europe/

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    5. "Ireland is the awkward one for Unionists because it has done so much better since independence."
      Not having to pay to fight for a free Europe might have something to do with that.

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  30. Effie Deans knowledge of the Irish economy is zero. Ireland is way ahead of Scotland in population growth, economic growth, health and education. Between 1922 and 2016 Ireland's population increased by over 65%, Scotland's by 5% (incidentally, one of the reasons why Ireland has been more successful than once-great Scotland on the rugby and soccer fields in recent years). Between 1986 and 2016 Ireland's annual economic growth in real terms averaged over 5.5%, Scotland just 1.7%. In 1980 life expectancy in Ireland and Scotland were the same - by 2016 life expectancy in Ireland was 2.4 years higher than in Scotland. In the 2012 and 2015 PISA tests Ireland scored higher than Scotland in all subjects and for both genders. In the 2015 UN Human Development Index Ireland ranked 8th (in the world) while the UK ranked 16th (Scotland would have been much lower still if it was counted separately). Ireland's budget deficit is gone and austerity ended 2/3 years ago. The UK's budget deficit is still high and rising, and the Tories admit austerity will continue for 5 more years at least. Scotland has great qualities and can match Ireland's dynamism and success, but not until it throws off the dead hand of rule by London.

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    1. John TheOptimist: ‘Between 1922 and 2016 Ireland's population increased by over 65%
      1) You’re making up the 1922 figure as Ireland’s civil war prevented the scheduled 1921 census from taking place—the first census in the Irish Free State was taken in 1926. Conclusion: you’re a liar.
      2) According to the RoI’s Central Statistics Office, the 1926 census found a population of 2,971,992; 2016’s figure being 4,761,865 means that the RoI’s population has increased 60.22% not ‘over 65%’. Conclusion: you’re incompetent.
      3) Measuring the increase from 1926 to 2016 hides that in between those 90 years the IFS/RoI’s population often declined. It decreased 0.12% from 1926 to 1936, decreased again (0.45%) from 1936 to 1946; increased slightly in 1951 (0.19%) but decreased again 4 years later by 2.11%; and again had decreased (2.76%) by 1961. Their best recovery was between 1971 and 1979 when their population increased 13.09%. Conclusion: you’re mendacious.
      4) In contrast, the only interval in the period 1926–2011 that NI recorded a population decline was 1971–81 (given how many people Irish republicans were slaughtering, that is hardly surprising). Conclusion: you’re deceitful.
      5) 17.02% of the RoI’s almost 5 million strong population are foreign-born (a worse figure than Britain’s 13%). Doesn’t say much for the ‘success’ of independence if the RoI turns itself into an ethnically, theologically and culturally foreign country. Conclusion: you’re a fool.
      As you’re patently a propagandist, I can’t be bothered dissecting the rest of your distortions and lies.

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  31. I was wondering when Katie Hopkins would start her own blog.

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